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John Vaillant, Ep. 376
By Brendan O’Meara
John Vaillant is here, CNFErs, to talk about Fire Weather: A True Story from a Hotter World (Knopf). It’s an incredible feat of writing, reporting, and research and takes us to the devastating 2016 wildfire that tore through Fort McMurray in Alberta, Canada.
John is the author a The Tiger: A True Story of Vengeance and Survival, The Golden Spruce: A True Story of Myth, Madness, and Greed, and The Jaguar’s Children.
You can find him on Twitter @johnvaillant and in this conversation he notes how Twitter actually helped him (what?!), and we also dig into interviewing for scene, not treating interviewing as an extraction industry, but more renewable, and fire, lots of fire.
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This episode pairs well with:
A wholly inaccurate transcript of this conversation, so please don’t quote verbatim unless you match it to the audio
Brendan O’Meara 0:00
Which I love that quote from David Wallace wells, unfortunately exquisitely timed.
John Vaillant 0:08
Yeah, yeah. It was, was uncanny. You’re planning that seven years out took some doing?
Brendan O’Meara 0:17
Yeah, that’s, that’s a great, I think that’s a great jumping off point, just the, the sheer fact of how long books are these, this nature is so deeply and intricately researched. And so and then, of course, so well written that, how you stick with it and endure, you know, just the whole the entire process and not get too bogged down by it. Of course, there are moments of getting bogged down, but when you when you’re talking about a seven year book project, you know how to, you know, just stay in it and stay energetic for that for the work.
John Vaillant 0:51
Oh, Brendan, this was by thought about that every day. And this was a really different animal, like the other books have, you know, have been pretty much three years door to door, and really steady work and few breaks and just kind of plodding through it at a at an in an energetic way. And this was really different. And I think the Trump years had some impacts on that the, the kind of the ominous pneus of and the implications of the project. You know, what I was actually looking at, you know, is so grave that it? You know, I don’t know if it slowed me down, but it really made me question what I was doing, you know, I feel, I don’t know if other writers you’ve interviewed have thought about this, but I feel like in a way to write almost requires a certain level of civilizational stability, you have to be able to sit quietly in a room and have some confidence that the world isn’t going to burn down around you. And so it presupposes a certain base level of of stability in the world. And when you look really closely at the climate file right now, even right now, at this minute, you look at the fires burning record fires in Canada, you look at record, ocean temperatures off the coast of Ireland, and elsewhere. You know, we’re at, we’re in a moment. And it’s we’ve never been here before. And so I was feeling that as I was writing and really almost almost daily wrestling with myself, how can you rationalize sitting at a desk, opining and exploring and investigating when really you should be at the barricades. So that’s, you know, that was a real quandary for me. And I think that slowed me down, there were a lot of days of just not writing. And so I think in some ways, this project, maintaining energy and momentum for this project was slightly different than some other long projects that other writers may have undertaken. I’ve got a friend right now who’s doing a definitive biography. And you know, he’s seven or eight years in, and he’s still not done. And, you know, it’s a long complicated life he’s trying to cover. And it’s a, it’s a really long haul. And so then you have the deadline, you have the kind of the ticking clock of the advance running out, just in terms of the finances of how nonfiction works, at least in the US and North America. So that’s a factor. And then, you know, it’s a, it’s a funny combination of tedium, and anxiety. And then on top of that, you know, you get these dopamine hits of discovery, you know, when you find a new fact, or make a new connection, or get a new interview, or figure out where a quotes can have dropped in for maximum effect, or somebody on Twitter points you toward something amazing, you know, which happened to me a lot. Twitter honestly, was my research assistant for this book. And that was really a first and that might be interesting to talk about, at some point. It made me smarter, it made me wiser, and made me seem like more people than I am. And so I’m really grateful to it. But as far as maintaining that momentum over seven years, you know, you just get up and put your ass in the chair. And, and it’s really, you know, that’s the main job even in spite of all your doubts, and you have made a commitment to your publisher and also to yourself, your family is out there kind of waiting for it to be done. And so, there are a few, I think very healthy social pressures, kind of keeping you honest and keeping you on task. And then there is in this case to complicating it further, it was just the dynamism of the subject. Between 20 16 When I decided I wanted to write a book about modern fire, and Fort McMurray, and that and the terrible fire that burned through that city, in May of 2016. So many things happened on the climate file so many greater and even more terrible fires broke out in other parts of the world. And so many states provinces and nations had the worst fire season in their respective histories, post 2016. And so I’m riding along. And when I was working on the tiger or working on the golden spruce, those stories stayed where you left them, you could put them down for a month, and you go back to the notes, you go back to the narrative, nothing has changed. Here, you look away for a week. And there’s some new extreme that has been, or some new threshold that’s been crossed or broken. There’s some new climate lawsuit, there’s some new information about a bank, or an insurance company, dropping some major petroleum project. And this was all relevant. And so really, right now ongoing is this period of an incredible cataclysmic epoch of change in terms of how our civilization reckons with the powerful manifestations of climate change that are now be setting us from all sides. Yeah, there’s
Brendan O’Meara 6:29
a moment very early in the book where you when you’re talking about the bitumen sands in Alberta, and in Fort McMurray, were like the it’s a very hard petroleum to refine, just based on its very nature. But there was something like, you know, that was like a half trillion dollar investment. I was just like, Oh, my God, that here is this like a very labor intensive resource intensive way to harvest this fossil fuel. Whereas, my goodness, what could a half trillion dollars do if you were to just invest that in like the best solar or wind technology? Right?
John Vaillant 7:06
Yeah, that I mean, it goes without saying, you know, when you think of the money and energy and most valuable of the time that we have squandered, really, since the 1970s, when that when the climate writing really was already on the wall, when photovoltaics and wind power, were in their infancy, but clearly viable. And, you know, we really lost almost fully two generations and was, you know, still melting tar out of sub Arctic sand, you know, men are descendants will look back in amazement at our insanity. And it you know, it’s really hard to wrap your head around that hydrocarbon recovery endeavor going on in northern Alberta, that has been so front and center and Canada’s economy and certain certainly Alberta’s economy. And it’s, especially when you consider all the natural gas that is used to melt the bitumen. And natural gas is really great energy on its own, you know, methane aside, greenhouse gases aside, it’s already ready to burn ready to go ready to create energy for us. And so to squander that energy on melting tar out of quartzite sand 1000 miles from the nearest market, or Tidewater is, you know, it’s really a stretch and sort of figured out the economics of that the rationale behind that, why a g7 nation would waste its time, treasure and reputation on that is, you know, that’s a that’s a big ask in and of itself. And that was just kind of one aspect of this book.
Brendan O’Meara 8:54
At a moment ago, you I loved what you said about the dopamine kick of occasionally finding that like that great little tidbit in your research just by virtue of like having the ass in the chair and I can attest that just the other day, you know, my central figure died 1975 And I’m starting my deadline is so tight that I have to kind of write as I’m going at this point. And you know, I had this you know, this moment yeah, there’s high school track, meet blah, blah, blah. Like it was had a little bit of detail, but not a whole lot. And then I read the story from 1975 When my guy died and turns out like his his what would who would be his future college coach Bill Bowerman was at a track meet. And he had never said he was at this particular track meet when he was when Steve was a high school freshman. And he in the sort of obituary piece, he’s like, I remember seeing him at this meet. And I was just like, Oh, that’s so cool. Like, now I get to infuse this very early scene and implant in him as a character. At this particular meet when this kid was on the rise before I never knew that I’m like, Oh my God, that’s such a great little detail that I get to go back in time and put it there. And it’s talking about that dopamine kick, he’s like, I just had one, I was like, This is awesome.
John Vaillant 10:10
I really, I really feel you there, Brendan. And also, what you’re doing is you’re making a connection for everybody else, no one else probably cares enough with respect to make that connection. And yet, what you’re doing is, is creating this, this structure of history. And by being able to place those names and place those events in time and space, and taking the care and time to do it that only, you know, an obsessive nonfiction near will do. Or a historian, you’re really reassembling a lost world. And it’s very possible that if you hadn’t done that, that connection, that link that moment would be lost to history. And it’s so you’re really kind of performing this service for the future, I feel, you know, we are collectively Yeah, by kind of assembling you know, and identifying these links, and it’s really this web work of events and people and intersections of time and place. And, you know, I did that repeatedly in fire weather. And it’s, it’s really thrilling to do that, you know, you’re kind of re peopling the world and events, and you know, this thing that might have just been, you know, it’s a symposium, when you can actually put the people there and realize, oh, my gosh, you know, this guy was there, and she was there. And he was there. And they’ve kind of gathered across space and time to make this new meaning. And that is, you know, it’s a it’s a kind of rarefied thrill that I think, you know, historians and nonfiction years and other types of researchers particularly enjoy, but that readers and people coming later to the story, appreciate, even if it’s unconscious, they just, they can just see more, you get a richer sense of detail and depth. And that’s what that’s what brings the story to life, all those connections, they’re almost like synapses for the story.
Brendan O’Meara 12:11
Yeah. And then it comes, let’s say, like, baked into it is a kind of researching insecurity to or an anxiety in that, like, sometimes you’re like, you can’t turn every single page, you can’t read it all by yourself, and what are we missing? Like, I stumbled across some of those details. I’m like, Oh, my God, like, what else? Might I be missing? Like, when I run out of time?
John Vaillant 12:35
Oh, Brandon, I mean, I think that’s, that’s everybody’s, everybody’s fear in this game. And then the other the kind of the corollary, terror is not asking the right question. You know, I, especially going into subjects, you know, every subject that I research I don’t really know much about when I go into it. And my and I have, I have my own, you know, basic curiosity about it, and I’ll do some reading about it. But if you don’t know, to ask the right question, you know, each question is, like a key. And when you ask it, you’re opening up a new box, and, or a new safe, or, you know, some secret Trove. But if you don’t ask that question, your subject may take it for granted that you know, already because it’s second nature to them. But it’s actually really interesting. And so, you know, for example, you know, in fire weather, I had occasion to speak to bulldozer operators, and they started telling me things about how you operate a bulldozer and the way how actually sensitive it is, despite the fact that it weighs 50 tons. You can feel incredible subtleties of terrain change through your seat. And they, you know, offered that one up, but it wasn’t something I would have thought to ask. And once I got that little trace of hint of information, then I started probing more about the sensitivities of these giant machines. And, you know, they’re really quite surgical. And it’s such a contradiction when you see these things grinding by you know, along, you know, the side of a highway or something like that. It’s, you know, they look like such blunt instruments, but really the, the people operating them are incredibly sensitized to every twitch and, and bumps that they encounter. And I just love that that kind of thing because it enriches our understanding of something that we think we already understand. You know, I mean, what’s what’s not to understand about a bulldozer you know, it pushes dirt around but actually, they are almost like 50 or 100 ton bubble bubble levels like you can feel exactly how crooked or off center you are with with incredible a specificity. And you know, I just never would have known that. And yet, you know, these guys who are sitting there smoking and you know, their boots are untied and they look, you know, kind of unkempt, they’re actually really tuned in.
Brendan O’Meara 15:13
Yeah, to that point, you write really well about almost the animal ification of fire and how like, alive it is. And there’s a really good set piece like in the first third of the book, or so just where you really just talk about the science of the fire, but also just how, like alive it is. And you really kind of like, changed it in my head about my perception of a year, I am thinking the flame is just as mere, a ratio of heat, like release of heat, but then it it ends up being this breathing thing. And it’s in there, it’s releasing different volatile gases within certain structures, and then it just feeds off that and pulls it towards it. And it’s, I imagine just like the bulldoze or, you know, anecdote, you were really learning about fire in a ways that you likely didn’t know before.
John Vaillant 16:04
Oh, yeah, no, I really go in as a, you know, an ignoramus, you know, with some questions, and the more you, you borrow into it, and then I realized, well, I really don’t understand how this works, I’m really going to have to, you know, basically apply myself with more vigor. And, you know, I’m a layperson, you know, I’m not a science guy, I’m interested in science, I appreciate it, I appreciate it the same way I appreciate jazz music, I don’t really understand what’s going on. But I understand that those folks are geniuses, and it would behoove me to understand it better. And I feel the same way about chemists and physicists and climate science tests. And meteorologists, you know, they really have taken the time to, to master a really complex series of, of events and elements. And so be able to grasp that well enough to basically explain it back to my layperson self in a way that holds up takes a huge amount of time and effort. Because you’re really, almost having to reverse engineer it, you have to break it all down in its technical terms, and then reassemble it using similes and metaphors that someone like me could understand. But that still hold up for the science and just, I’m proud to say I just did a reading last night in Bellingham, Washington, and a chemistry teacher was there and he came up to me afterwards, he said, I just want to tell you, you know, your description of fire behavior and how it works was correct. Good for you. And, you know, he was impressed. And I was really relieved. Because, you know, I’m way out of my comfort zone here, I’m cantilever pretty far out on on a lot of this, of the science and, you know, I really made an effort to fact check it and, and get it right, and I ran it through, you know, past fire scientists and some other experts, you know, I do that, you know, before I let it loose in the world, but still, there’s that fear, you know, of some detail that is obvious to an expert, that is not obvious to me, that’s going to, you know, sneak through and end up you know, in the final version, and then you’re just going to have to live with it. And the, you know, the embarrassment of that, and, and I just don’t want to be wrong, you know, you want to, you’re serving your readers, they’re trusting you, you know, they’re investing money in the book, or at least time and by reading it, and you really don’t want to betray that trust. So you really want to have it right. And so that chemistry teacher really, you know, put me at ease slept better last night. Oh,
Brendan O’Meara 18:47
that’s awesome. That’s great to hear. And that’s sometimes the greatest compliment when you’re dealing with some very nuanced and or even esoteric topics within say, fire. And to know that you you got it right with someone who is like, deeply, like, steeped in the science of a thing. And meanwhile, we are just kind of like Taurus, and we’re just trying our best to be good tour guides for the reader. And so when you stick the landing on something like that, it’s like, a band that does feel good. And yeah, you do sleep better that night.
John Vaillant 19:21
Yeah, yeah. I mean, that’s really the greatest vindication for me, I don’t know how it is for you, but when, you know, like, if a firefighter you know, reads fire whether or a climate scientist read it, or an incident command, or you know, or somebody like that, you know, that’s really the the highest praise because you’re reflecting their reality that they’re experts in, accurately back to them in a form that they can respect and recognize and that’s, it’s really hard to do. And that’s, you know, That’s really what I strive for him and I, you know, it’s, it’s really a joy to be read, you know, by anybody, frankly. But to have somebody who is, you know, a legitimate expert in the subject that you’ve decided to take on is, you know, it’s kind of like winning a prize for me. You know, it’s really it’s just, it’s a kind of ultimate validation, I guess that really matter. That really matters a lot.
Brendan O’Meara 20:29
Yeah, they’re, like, so many tasty. So, so few tasty bread crumbs along the way, and many opportunities and many off ramps for you to like, question why you’re doing this and like, dammit, like, should I be writing a book, you’re like, god dammit, like, this is the last one know why I’m doing this again. But, but then you get those little shot that that stuff that puts fuel in your tank, like, okay, you know that, you know, that’s part of the reason why I do this and then use electron and then you’re like Pacino and Godfather three, it’s like, it pulls me back in.
John Vaillant 21:01
Yeah. Yeah, no, it’s, it’s, it’s a very seductive, medium, you know, for those of us who have the bug? And it’s, I mean, I guess it you know, in a way, it’s that when I think about what I write, I’m thinking about, well, I, you know, I paint what I see, you know, and this is, these are the things happening in the world that, that compelled me, but I think about, you know, a landscape painter kind of setting up outside. And how did you choose that horizon? How did you choose that time of day, that particular situation? And why do you want to then go out and basically recreate it? You know, I think about that a lot in terms of creation with a capital C, and in terms of just the world as it is, warts and all. And, you know, as an as a nonfiction writer, you’re trying to recreate that. So you are trying to paint what you see. And yet what’s what’s there already, is perfect. Because it is like it exists. So regardless of how you feel about it, it’s its own kind of perfection, because it is manifesting on Earth, and at this particular moment. And so as a writer, as a renderer, I see our role as trying to rise to the level of creation, you know, which is kind of the most audacious task, you know, it’s kind of like, son, you know, your arms too short to box with God. And, and that’s, you know, as a writer trying to render something that already is at a level of detail that you could never match the the audacity of trying to do that in a way the foolhardiness of it, or the vanity of it is something that strikes me on a regular basis. And yet, it’s totally compelling. You know, it’s really like, Ah, it’s this irresistible challenge.
Brendan O’Meara 22:58
I love what you say about like, painting what you see, and, and so much of the challenge of, of narrative nonfiction is at times painting what you can’t see. So, you know, what, what was the challenge for you when you weren’t on the scene to still create vivid, vivid cinematic scenes, despite you not being there to witness it?
John Vaillant 23:20
That’s a that’s a really good, a really good point. And, you know, when I wrote the proposal for this book, you know, back in 2016, you know, the fire had broken out, and it burned through, you know, this city of, you know, 90,000 people, and caused, you know, historic damage. But I wasn’t there, you know, I was, I was in another country, actually, at the time. And so as I wrote it, and recreated some of the scenes some of the moments and, you know, one of my editors was reading the proposal, she thought that I had been there, she said, Oh, so you went up to Fort McMurray? And I said, No, I actually, I haven’t been there yet. And, you know, through I mean, you know, YouTube is really a boon in terms of being able to see, you know, what, what you missed, but also, you know, you don’t have the smells, you don’t have the visceral experience of being in it. And so to create that, to kind of make that what I would call an empathic leap into the scene that requires this extra level of being able to kind of transpose your senses into that place, and draw on everything that you know, about fire About the sub-arctic About a suburban street about a melted car, and you may not have experienced those precise things, but you have to kind of draw on a lifetime of experience and I’ve traveled a lot. I’ve done a lot of things been a lot of places, and so I’m able to kind of patchwork together Other, the sensory memories in a way that basically create a simulacrum of authentic of authenticity in that moment, even though I wasn’t there. And so, you know, I take the, the, you know, the street name and the, and the name of the town and the date, you know, from the records that exist. And then after that, you’re kind of layering up the paint if you as if you will, you know, over the, over the canvas to get that sense of depth and authenticity of experience. So that then the reader coming along, you know, they’re, you’ve, you’ve situated them in place and time. And then on top of that, you’re giving them this sensory experience. And that’s where, you know, the English language is, you know, maybe unparalleled in terms of its versatility, and energy, and ability to convey nuances of sensation. It’s really, really fantastic. I feel honestly incredibly lucky to be a native English speaker, for that reason, because I feel like there’s this, just infinite colors at my fingertips going back to the painting analogy that you can kind of subtly and not so subtly shade the scene and and really give it a kind of three dimensional extrasensory pop.
Brendan O’Meara 26:22
Yeah, the interviewing people for those sensory details it can, it can be just really, it can be really awkward to ask those to ask those questions. And I know when I when I do it, it’s where I’m like, Alright, Ken, I know this is hard. And it was a long time ago. But what do you know the weather? Do you know the Do you remember the smells? If I was running right behind you, what would I be seeing? And it’s like, where they kind of you can feel them just kind of went like I don’t know, it was so long ago. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But I think we got to get over that. I wonder for you just like, how have you learned to just maybe, kind of get over that awkwardness? Because in service of the story and those details it ultimately makes for just a far better book.
John Vaillant 27:08
Yeah. Oh, it absolutely does. It absolutely does. And the most kind of egregious extreme version of that for me was was interviewing Yuri thrush for the tiger. And so he was the, the Russian Warden charged with hunting this man eating Tiger down. And it was a really desperate, you know, it was kind of the just kind of ultimate game of literally cat and mouse except cat and man. And the the ending was by no means a foregone conclusion about uh, you know, who would prevail. And I really I interrogated that poor man, and I had a Russian translator with me. And because he was a warden, because he was a law man. He respected my basically obsession with detail. And so I was asking him what kind of socks he wore, you know, what type of boots he wore, you know, where they lace up, you know, where they Velcro it, where they made out of a lot about his firearms, about his clothes, about his vehicle, about the quality of the snow. And we I literally went back to him every day for a week. So hours and hours each day, and we just kind of wore each other out. And to his credit, he stayed with it. But I think when people understand your motives, that you were really trying to get it right. What you’re basically doing is showing respect for their reality and for their experience. And so I think a lot of people respond positively to that, you know, once they trust you, it’s like, wow, this guy really kick, he cares as much as I do. Maybe he even cares more than I do. And that’s kind of wonderful to have that kind of attention beamed on you, because most people really don’t care what you think or what you say, or what you did, or what happened to you that day. And so to have somebody like us come in with a with a genuine intelligent interest, and not you know, a parasitic, manipulative interest. And that’s there’s a whole ethical piece to being a reporter and, and an interview or that that we can get into, because there is this kind of mercenary aspect to it. And at the same time, when you’re in it, when you’re in that experience together, you know, my mother told me that, you know, the definition of charm is the ability to get people to talk about themselves. And so, you know, that’s something that I learned from my mother, and I’m good at it. And, you know, by kind of leaning in and showing an intelligent interest, and knowing just enough about the topic that you can ask a question that almost sounds like, oh, well, you’ve done this too. And then you’re sort of in the club then. And then they might give you kind of an extra layer of detail that that you didn’t know about. And so slowly, slowly, you can come Have recreate the scene in incredible detail. And you know, you can see that effort in the tiger and you can see, you know, the patients of your atrash, you know, sitting with me day after day, working through moment by moment move by move, you know, this desperate hunt. And you know, the same, you know, with a running with a foot race, you know, or a boxing match, you know, you want that that level of detail to a let literally blow by blow kind of granularity. And that, you know, we’ll all go there, you know, as readers as watchers, as fellow investigators, and enjoy errs of the human experience, you know, we want that level of detail, because we know what it feels like to, you know, we can put ourselves there. And that’s a real gift, I think, to the reader to be able to kind of step into this other skin and inhabit in a really vivid way. And there’s just no other way to get that
Brendan O’Meara 31:01
you have to step into the skin. I love hearing you say that, because one of my favorite things, because I’m talking to a lot of elite athletes. And I preface the thing by saying like, this might sound a little weird. But like, when things were going good, when your body was just in its prime A and you are having a Prime Day, like What did that feel like? You know, you’re running down to the long jump pit in Iran, as is one woman Fran worthy, and she’s very, very, very good long jumper. She’s ie she, you know, she almost was like, rolled her head back. She’s just like, it was like I was flying. It was it was great. And to hear them articulate when their bodies were just so primed. How does the discus feel when it comes off your lead finger, when you’ve just spun three times? And you know, like, that thing is going for a world record? Like tell what is that, like, I’m never going to experience that what was that like, and you can see them really come alive, even on the phone, when you aren’t even looking them in the eye, you can just you feel the energy of like, wow, this person is really trying to get to the heart of my craft,
John Vaillant 32:09
though, Brendon, I can, I can just feel my own, you know, interest, you know, just because already, you’re describing things that I had never really thought about, and I’d certainly have never experienced and, and yet to, you know, we want to know what the extremes of the human experience are. And you know, you know, the lows and the highs and to be an elite athlete, you know, in her prime, with this kind of almost supernatural power, where you’re harnessing, you know, the momentum, you know, of the object with your own body with your own skeleton, you know, with the temperature of the air and the density of the air that day, and all getting it in sync for the for maximum effect, you know, only a kind of a genius can do that I’m thinking of, you know, as these kinds of, you know, like a transcendent jazz solo or something like that, you know, when someone is so fully in the zone, that it’s angelic. And you know, a normal person cannot do that, in fact, you as an elite athlete may not even be able to reproduce that. Yeah, so there was some synchrony in that moment. That was perfect. And how amazing you know, to be a human being and experience it, and how amazing to be a writer and have the really the privilege and opportunity to convey that experience for the rest of us who are, you know, slumping around, you know, in our sweatpants and sly.
Brendan O’Meara 33:45
That gets to the point of, it’s very fitting a very fitting metaphor, so to speak about, about interviewing and stuff and seeing it as sort of a renewable energy instead of an extraction industry. And, and by, you know, and it can be viewed you know, what the ethical part that you were alluding to a moment ago, how interviewing can and you know, you could treat it like scorched earth just burrow down, take all the oil and move out of Boomtown or you can really invest in being like, truly, truly enamored by their craft while still extracting information, but it is a more nourishing way of utilizing the time and the privilege it is to speak to that person.
John Vaillant 34:31
Brendan Eich I really think that’s a good point. And because I do think in an interview, well done elevates everybody. And you know, the interviewer gets what they want, they get this material and this deep detail, but I think the older I get, the more I realized that pretty much 90% of what human beings want out of life is to be seen and heard. It’s really simple and a Good interview, the subject really feel seen and heard, you’re really they’re attending to every detail, and validating, you know, this intense experience they had. And I, you know, I went through this a lot with, you know, in Fort McMurray, you know, you’re basically interviewing people about the worst, scariest, most devastating day of their lives, you know, they saw their house burned down, or they, you know, trying to escape this fire that, you know, they literally don’t know, if they’re gonna live through it, you know, when the kids are in the backseat, you know, so, you know, it’s, it’s a, it’s a terrible thing to put a human being through, and then to put them through it again, by saying, So tell me about it. And, you know, they’re, you know, a lot of grown men cry and in Fort McMurray, and that’s a tough town, you know, that’s a, that’s a hard working, you know, petroleum town, and, you know, that fire wounded a lot of people. And so, to talk about it, and create a space, that safe enough and trustworthy enough for them to kind of go through this trauma, and, and feel some of it, you know, in a in a, in a fulsome, emotional way, in a way that they don’t, you know, have to guard against or have to be strong for their kids, they can just know, you know, I’m really weeping right now. And, and it’s, that can be, I think, a really healthy release for the person who experienced it. And, and it’s a really, you know, in that sense, I feel like, and I don’t think I’m kidding myself here, I feel like you can really almost be doing a service, it’s almost beyond just an interview, you know, you’re really, it’s almost a potentially therapeutic, you know, kind of intervention, where you’re creating a safe place to release some of the tension from that event. And, you know, I really experienced that a lot. And as I went back and checked back in with people, you know, on, upon publication of the book saying, Look, you remember that interview we did five years ago, while it’s actually getting published now, and I just wanted to check in with you, you know, about that, you know, are you still good with that, and all this, and they had really good memories of our conversations, and kind of wanted to fill in the gaps and, you know, relive some of the things and talk about where they were now. And so it really, you know, that ended up I think, being a positive for them. And that really was reassuring to me and made me feel better, about, you know, essentially invading their privacy,
Brendan O’Meara 37:25
it really gets to the point where I think a lot of reporters and journalists can have are seen, potentially as like vultures of just trying to like, rake up all this information just for their own personal gain and their stories and to hear us like, go back to those people and be like, Hey, this is gonna come to light. We had this raw conversation, long conversation very detailed several years ago, but now it’s coming back. And so the fact that you’re showing that degree of understanding and empathy and with them I think that just goes to you know, you as a person, but also is a really like, maybe like, we’re like a really like a tender hearted nonfiction and storyteller, where it’s just like, you’re not just this wealth of information from my own game, like you’re a person, and I didn’t want to honor your stories, and it’s really cool to hear you say that.
John Vaillant 38:13
You know, there’s been a lot of talk about empathy, I think over the past few years, and in the context of journalism and reportage. But you know, we are sentient connectors, and the more open we are to the feelings, the needs, the experience of others, you know, the richer, it makes our lives but also the more connected we feel. And, you know, when I’m talking to someone, I just sort of intuitively feel my heart going out to them. It’s not a conscious thing. It’s not like, well, this is, you know, how I was taught to, you know, have a bedside manner, you know, and it’s more just who I am naturally, kind of operating in a structured way in the form of an interview, but I think, you know, it really is an asset to be emotionally open and available, and have access to your own emotions. And, you know, honestly, you know, Brandon, as I was writing this book, and I would go back through some of these interviews, I would really just, you know, start tearing up as I was getting into some of these intense parts because I was thinking like, God, these people, they went through that, you know, and and it was really hard to imagine them suffering like that, and then also just my relief that they survived, you know, like, my god, they’re still they’re still around, you know, they get to be with their kids and they get to rebuild and they get another crack, you know, at life you know, that was so nearly taken from them and not all the made it you know, there’s some there’s, you know, we lost some people, you know, in that book, but it’s, you know, there’s a real relief and kind of vicarious happiness that they that they got it out and made it through intact So that’s, you know, it feels like a, you know, a victory kind of for the, for the human race.
Brendan O’Meara 40:05
Yeah, yeah. And up the McKenzie River here, you know, east of Eugene, in 2020. In September, over Labor Day, there was the holiday farm fires, giant fire, it laid siege to a lot, a lot of houses and giant tree, tree farm just went, and you probably heard of it, and in it, and it gets to the idea of, of WUI, the wildland urban interface and all these houses going down. And, and a lot of people want to, you know, rebuild up in that area. And but this is the risk you run when you build into a fire ecology. And it’s it was it was really illuminating to read what you’re writing about, you know, gewesen. And the fact is, like, you’re just asking, almost asking for this to happen to a community, if you build into these ecologies like this?
John Vaillant 41:01
Well, it’s almost like having a deer farm, you know, in Mountain Lion country. Yeah. And you know, they’re gonna eventually jump the fence or find a way in and kill your deer. And we’ve grown up in a really unusual time in history, when you know, never, besides this past century, have we had such an illusion of control over nature. And there’s so much of it, we’ve been able to, quote unquote, manage, including fire suppression, and, you know, which really achieved incredible heights after World War Two, as I’m sure you know, and we’re kind of paying the price for that, you know, by stifling fire by stifling these natural impulses and these natural purges that forests require, especially in the West, we’re really, you know, creating a hazard for the future. And, you know, it’s not the sole cause. But you know, one of the reasons, you know, 21st century fire, as I call it burns as intensely as it does is because there’s this incredible fuel buildup. And we know, when that goes, it goes off, you know, within intensity that a normal, quote, unquote, healthy fire on a landscape that had been burned over regularly, wouldn’t, wouldn’t achieve. And so, you know, we’ve really created this problem for ourselves. And hand in hand with that elevated fire suppression ability has been this idea that, well, we can live anywhere and will be safe. And, you know, no people, you know, stopped living in the forest, you know, in the, in the 19th century, really, partly because they got burned out so often. And if you looked at, you know, if you look at many settlements around Europe, and traditional settlements, you know, in the east coast of the US, you know, historically they, you know, they were broad fields all the way around the community. And some of that was for ease of pasture edge and planting, but also, it made an incredible natural firebreak. And so the forest could burn all it wanted to but when you’ve got, you know, hundreds of acres of fields all the way around your village, you know, you’ll be protected. And they learned that the hard way and Stephen pine, you know, really the, the m&s greys have of American and really global fire and amazing writer and historian, he writes about that really eloquently describing, watching these communities burn these WUI communities burned down, he said, It’s like watching polio or cholera come back, you know, we already figured out how to vaccinate for it, how to cure it. And it’s like, we forgot the lesson. And as people moved into the WUI, as they really started to do, you know, combining with the, the explosion of suburbia, and then this more recent desire to live close to nature and have you know, running trails out the back door, in a cul de sac out front. We really forgot that no, actually forests, especially in the West, are extraordinarily flammable. And this is a part of their normal lifecycle. And now you’ve put this permanent, and really quite volatile structure that’s worth a lot of money, and takes a lot to insure right in the middle of it. And and so you’re really kind of asking for it. And now I think with these elevated temperatures due to climate change, and the drying that goes hand in hand with elevated temperatures, we’ve now ratcheted up the flammability of those will we communities in a way that you know, really wasn’t the case, say in 1990.
Brendan O’Meara 44:40
You brought up World War Two, a moment ago also about you know, fire suppression and stuff of that nature. And there’s, there’s a there’s a moment in the book where you’re looking to use a fire expert to kind of describe what was going on with Fort McMurray and he brought up the Hamburg fires arm in the firebombing of Hamburg by the allies over over in Germany in World War Two. And I was hoping maybe you could speak to that. And the hunt, you went on to try to draw that corollary, which you know, you did so well.
John Vaillant 45:14
Well, it was such a surprise. I mean, there was so much about I mean, this, again, is one of joy is kind of the wrong word in this context, but one of just the really surprising and energizing aspects of being a researcher and a reporter in the discovery of it, right, the discovery of things that you literally cannot imagine. And one of those was, as I spoke to firefighters, you know, one of them casually said, yeah, it took about five minutes for these houses to burn down. And I’m, you know, I hear you, right, you know, this, this is a two story house, you know, that up in Fort McMurray, they run about, you know, between 500,800 $1,000, a piece up there. These are brand new homes state of the art. It’s a very, very wealthy community in 2016, when I was first researching up there, the median household income was $200,000, a year, very, very wealthy, petroleum town. And so the houses reflect that. And these houses were burning down in five minutes, and it just didn’t sound physically, physically possible. And I kind of pushed back on this firefighter. And he said, Yeah, I know, it sounds impossible, but that’s what was happening. And so I said, Okay, you know, I’ll take that with a grain of salt. And then I interviewed some other firefighters who are in different parts of the city, in different neighborhoods that also burned to the ground. And they said, Yeah, that was about five minutes. And so, you know, I’m trying to wrap my head around this because the, you know, a house weighs about 50 tons, you know, it’s full of a lot of stuff and, and just think of how long it takes to burn a two by four. You don’t burn a two by four and five minutes, it takes half an hour to burn a two by four, even under the best circumstances. So what is going on there? So I wrote to Vito broski is, you know, I was looking at, you know, Googling around for you know, house flammability and domestic fire and came across this guy, Vito brows, who’s based in Seattle. And he’s kind of a go to guy for structure and household goods, flammability. And he’s written a couple 100 articles, and some really big books, textbooks and things like that. So I wrote to him. And I, you know, I said, you know, these houses were burning down in five minutes, and he was aware of the Fort McMurray fire, and I said, you know, how is this physically possible? What’s going on to make them volatize That quickly, you know, so imagine throwing a milk carton into a bonfire. That’s how the houses were going up. And he wrote back, you know, really surprisingly quickly, and he said, Yeah, that’s a tough one. But the humbler a fire storm is a good place to start. And the idea of an intentionally set urban fire, that was initiated by hundreds of allied fighter bombers drawing, dropping literally 1000s upon 1000s of tons of thermite incendiary bombs on to the homes of the workers of Hamburg, Germany in the summer of 1943. I just never would have occurred to me to use that example as a way to understand what happened in Fort McMurray. And I started reading about that Firestorm, which was intentionally set, you know, so to the point that allies Americans hire German architects to recreate exactly German Workers houses, in the Hummer Brook neighborhood of Hamburg, and they built these in Utah on a bombing range, and they bombed them over and over again to get you know, figure out what was the right combination of, of thermite to get these things to really go up. And they they were intentionally trying to start a firestorm and they succeeded. They did it on a really hot day, after a period of of minimal rain. And the firestorm of of Homburg, you know, is legendary and it created, you know, cyclonic winds and, you know, human beings were sucked into it in the streets melted and fire trucks burst into flame, you know, hundreds of metres from open fire just because of the radiant heat. It was it was absolutely apocalyptic and totally manmade. And so, as I was trying to wrap my head around the horror of that, and then think about Fort McMurray, which was, you know, it was another working town, but it was a wildfire that came into the city. So what’s the similarity? And then I started realizing, well, actually, a black spruce tree, heated to 1000 degrees is a lot like a fire bomb. These are very flammable trees that are actually designed to burn the foreal. The boreal forest system in northern Canada all the way around that northern hemisphere is is a fire dependent system that regenerates itself through periodic fire. So black spruce is one of those keystone species that that initiate, you know, responds to fire with great exuberance. So firefighters literally call it gas on a stick. So imagine drought conditions around the city of Fort McMurray. Imagine a relative humidity of 11%, which is comparable to Death Valley, which is 2000 miles south of Fort McMurray. Imagine temperatures of 90 degrees, which is almost 30 degrees above normal for that time, that period in May and the sub sub Arctic, and then in introducing a wildfire to that to those conditions, you get these explosive circumstances that when they come in to a modern neighborhood, we discover that the modern house is actually filled with petroleum products. So in a way between the black spruce, and the petroleum infused houses, vinyl siding, tar shingles, all the laminates and glues that go into plywood and flooring, and then think of all the polyurethane and the synthetic stuffing and the upholstery, all that stuff. volatize is certainly at 1000 degrees and explode, it doesn’t catch on fire, it explodes into flame simultaneously. So in a sense, the city firebombed itself, between the black spruce trees and the heavy petroleum content in every home. It was perfectly designed to explode into flame. And that’s not what we think about when we think about building a house moving into a house raising our children in a house. We don’t think about them as potential fire bombs, but you get them hot enough. And that’s what 21st century fires capable of doing. It totally changes the nature of what your shelter is. And it’s really a Mind Bender, you know, I’ve had to spend a lot of time with that just to think of you know, what a home can become under extreme circumstances.
Brendan O’Meara 52:31
In the same way that someone with a hammer, everything looks like a nail. I wonder for you like now that you know so much about about fire? How has just the nature of our world and just what you know about fire? Like how would you now see the world around you? How is your view of the world around you change based on what you know about fire behavior and fire weather.
John Vaillant 52:57
The world is a much more volatile place now through my lens. Yeah. And I look at you know, where I live here in Vancouver, you know, I live in a very thickly settled neighborhood of 100 year old wooden houses, you know, their grip, basically great big boxes of kindling. And if we had another heat dome, like we did in 2021, you know, we’re pushing 100 100 degrees here, which is insane for Vancouver, British Columbia, you add a stiff wind and some kind of fire accident. You know, you could lose the whole west side of the city. And I never really thought about that before. But you know, cities have wooden cities have burnt down in the past. And you know, with the extreme heat that is now much more common. Fire likes that, and fires energized by that. And so that is a real concern to me. And then the other piece of this is going back to the petroleum industry. You know, the petroleum industry is a fire industry. The only reason we’re interested in fossil fuels, whether it’s coal or natural gas, or bitumen or oil, is because it burns. And so we know we talk about the energy industry or the oil and gas industry, but what we’re really talking about is a fire industry. And we are surrounded every day by by 1000s of fires, you know, whether it’s you know, in the cars around us in our pilot lights, you know, in our stove and our water heaters. Fire is part and parcel of our civilization. But with every one of those fires comes emissions. And when you multiply that times billions, which is what we’re dealing with now, you’re really going to impact the container that is our atmosphere. You know, it’s, you know, like, you know, what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas. Well what happens in our atmosphere stays in our atmosphere. And what’s happening in our atmosphere right now is that vast quantities of co2 and methane are being emitted into it, and creating the conditions for a much more a much warmer climate, and a much more combustible climate. And so we’re living in a more fire prone world now. And so that’s something I think about every day.
Brendan O’Meara 55:24
Damn, well, the books are incredible John, I really, I really ate it up, I loved the and just learned a lot. And then just was also just amazed at your capacity to build scenes to which I think was a masterclass in that which is a ton of fun to read. And also just that someone who admires that kind of thing, it was like, wow, this is this is handled well, and in the hands of someone who will, he was truly skilled. So as we bring this conversation down for a landing, I always like to ask a guest for a recommendation of some kind. And that’s just anything you could be excited about these days. So I posed that to you, John, like what are you excited about? And what might you recommend for the listeners out there? Oh, boy,
John Vaillant 56:03
well, thank you, Brendan, you know, for for your really kind words, and just for your time and interest, I really appreciate it. It’s really fun to talk about this and with a fellow practitioner. So I really appreciate that. And, as far as you know, I think Timothy Egan is a guy I have a lot of time for and who I really admire and just, you know, a fantastic American nonfiction year and historian. And if you haven’t read the Worst Hard Time or seeing the documentary film of that name that he made with Ken Burns, I really urge you to watch it or read it because it captures in microcosm and environmental breakdown, a climate breakdown, totally driven by capitalism and, and short sighted greed, with clarity and succinctness and vividness. That, you know is again, speaking of masterclasses and masters, it just really is a is a beautiful example. And you know, if I was in charge of education, I would have you know, every 11th grader on the continent, read that book or watch that documentary. And another one like that, for me that really, I think, honestly sort of set me on the path that I’m on now is David McCullough, early work, the Johnstown Flood about the the famous flood that washed away that Pennsylvania town, I think in 1889, you know, it was really the worst disaster on American soil, you know, in that record stood, I think it may still stand, you know, a couple of 1000 people died in terms of the I think it was not until maybe the the Galveston flood, you know, was that number surpassed, but the way he describes all the contributing factors, you know, it was a completely manmade environmental disaster that was completely avoidable. And he just, you know, without wagging fingers, or being judgmental, he just kind of lays out the conditions and lays out the human foibles that led to this catastrophe. And I just find that so interesting. And, you know, both those books are kind of parables for our current situation, around climate and petroleum and, and just the conflict between the limits of the natural world and our own appetites, and what we are being persuaded to buy and how much we’re being persuaded to use every day. And so that I just feel like those are really timely, and kind of eternal evergreen books and stories that continue to resonate for me. Well, that’s
Brendan O’Meara 58:54
awesome. Well, well, well, John Lee, thank thanks so much for the work you’ve done in this incredible book. And again, thanks for carving out time to come on the podcast. I really appreciate it. Oh,
John Vaillant 59:03
my pleasure, Brendon. Power to you and I’ll be listening
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
